Ep. 32 - Social Work Leadership: Where Maximum Challenge Meets Maximum Support (w/ transcript)

Join us in hearing from a social worker who explores all things leadership in the social work profession - you most certainly won't want to miss what he has to say.

Listen along with Mim and Lis as they contemplate the challenges and fulfillment that comes with working as a leader in social work.

Credits:

Hosts - Lis Murphy and Dr. Mim Fox.

Producers - Ben Joseph & Justin Stech

Contact us online at www.socialworkstories.com, follow our facebook page or use the handle @SOWKStoriesPod on twitter or instagram.

Do you have thoughts, want to contribute a story or question for the team, or just say hello? Send us an email on socialworkstoriespodcast@gmail.com - we'd love to hear from you!

Podcast Transcript - Episode 31: Social Work and Leadership - Where maximum challenge meets maximum support (transcript).

To cite:

The Social Work Stories Podcast, 2020, ‘Episode 32: Social Work and Leadership - Where maximum challenge meets maximum support’ (transcript), accessed online [insert date here], <www.socialworkstories.com>.

Date Published: 28/04/2020

With special thanks to Katie Wicks for transcription.

Photo by Jehyun Sung on Unsplash

Mim: Hello, everyone, Welcome to Social Work stories podcast Im Mim Fox and I'm here with my lovely friend and colleague in the cupboard. Liz Murphy. Hi, Liz.

Lis: Hello Mim. Hello Mim, I just want to tell everyone I've taken a screenshot of me in the cupboard and Mim, is that a dressing gown over your head by the way

Mim: It is a dressing gown over my head this is the continual search for good audio that we're on at the moment during COVID Lis where we're trying as hard as we can to be as muffled as possible in reality, but as clear as possible on the podcast.

Lis: Yeah ! let us just take a moment to say we take this podcast incredibly seriously.

Mim: We take it so seriously that we're in the dressing gown and in the cupboard for you all.

Lis: That's exactly right. That Yes, yeah. But But Mim, tell us about this episode. What What do we want to about this one.

Mim: So this episode is a little bit different to our normal episodes. As our regular listeners know, we often take a story from a social worker, and a story about a client or a family and then we debrief and analyze that story. But for this one, we decided to go down a different route, because one of the topics that really doesn't get enough spoken about is social work leadership. And you and I lis have both worked with this social worker, who we're going to hear from today, who we regard as one of the strongest Social Work leaders in hospitals that we know. Would you say that?

Lis: I would absolutely say that and maybe we can talk a little bit later about some of the qualities that we've appreciated. But but to perhaps all I'd say is it's got a lovely combination of visionary and A beautiful way of linking Social Work values in the way in which he leads.

Mim: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I'm really keen to hear what our listeners think and have experienced with social work leadership as well. So for all of you listening out there, see if our social worker today actually says some, makes some points that really resonate with you and your experience. And we'd love to hear back. So we're going to let you hear from him now and we'll be back with you afterwards, see you then.

Social worker: I'm a social work department head in a metropolitan hospital, and I've been a social worker for over 18 years. When I'm thinking today about what to talk about, I really wanted to talk about leadership and particularly obviously, Social Work leadership and what we can bring to the story. Just a little bit about me I have, as I said, had over 18 years of social work experience, started off doing Child Protection investigation and a lot of court work and things like that. And then moved to the UK from Australia for about 10 years and did a lot of hospital and community social work there. And that's where I started to be a social work leader and manager. And so I'll touch on that a bit more later. And then for the last seven or so years, I've been working in Australia in hospitals here. So when I reflected about my own leadership experience, my leadership pathway or journey has probably been similar to a lot of social workers in hospitals. And that's to, I saw an opportunity of I had been a hospital social worker for a while and I saw an opportunity to step into a short term a temporary, Senior social work position in a hospital. And I had been around in that, that space for a while by that stage, I observed a few things. And really, I mean, that was shortly after the the bombings that were in London, on the public transport network and around there and our hospital was providing a response to that. And I'd seen how leadership was inaction in those types of crises and what we had to offer as social workers. It is quite unique, I think in a in a crisis. And so after shortly after that, there was an opportunity to step into the short term position, and I had a chat with my boss about it as you do. So we're sitting in a pub in Hampstead after work one one night, and I said to her, I'm thinking that I'd like to apply for that position, and her first statement back to me was, why would you want to do that? And I was a bit taken aback by that because I thought, well, what what does she really mean by that, but I went off and I talked to her about why I wanted to do to put my hand up for that opportunity. And she, she took that on board, she was probably of few words. So didn't really give me much feedback about that. But I think that's a really important job for people. But the important question for people who are thinking about taking on leadership roles or management positions in social work, it really starts with that, you know, what, what is your motivation? Why do you want to do this? And, ours is such a values based profession. Our values as social workers should be what motivates us in our practice. And that really should be what motivates us in our leadership and in our management roles as well. We can't not consider our ethics and our framework that we're working from. So I think that important that question is very important. So that was my first start in terms of my leadership journey, this some short term role, which then lead to other you know, longer term positions and more more senior positions where I was managing social workers and non qualified staff and occupational therapists and things like that in in the UK, and then, you know, similar roles here in hospitals in Australia.

So, when I'm thinking about what I've got to say about leadership and social work leadership, we really need to be continuing that reflective practice so we are very good at doing that we get very good at being reflective clinicians in whilst we are providing clinical practice We need to continue that on when we're when we're in management and leadership roles. So I'd like to ask the the leaders out there, when was the last time you reflected on your leadership style? Your leadership style, your strengths, your weaknesses are vital, you need to have a reflection on those and know where you're heading to. It'll also help you to stay and helps me to stay true to where I am. Often when we get into leadership positions, we can be pushed and pulled in all types of directions and all kinds of agendas. We need to have this practice in place to really make sure that we're staying true to ourselves and what's really what we're is really about our core. Again, about what motivates you, you know what, what gets me up in the morning is what's really important. The job can be tough. We may not want to kind of get in and do it sometimes. But if we know what motivates us Then we're going to be really out there and getting amongst it when we're talking about social work leadership. For those that know me, know that I know I love a bit of an analogy. And when I think about social work leadership and what it means to me, it's about a campfire. And when you think about a campfire, it's in the middle of your camping grounds, it gathers people, people sit around it, it lasts for a long time, if you keep it going, you don't really want to let it go out. And it provides something for people sitting around it. It's a gathering point. It's a source of warmth, it's a source of energy. It helps kind of to light the way for people, helps provide guidance and direction. And it really is a focal point for people to kind of come to, seek encouragement and seek guidance, and to go away from and that's that's how I want to look at my social Work leadership, is as a campfire and providing that for people, providing that gathering for my staff as well. It's important when we think about what motivates us to think about the things that are important to us, and those things that we really want to promote. If we all do that, if we think about the things that really we want to see in terms of making a difference in our society, in our community, those around us and we push those agendas and and those positive aspects and positive change, then we're going to say some real change all together, we need to play our part. We don't need to play the part of others. Also, obviously we need to think about you know what it means to inspire others as well. We've looked, we can look to the past, in our social work leaders in the past and look for inspiration. We should look around us as well, what people are doing that's best else where. And we need to look forward as well. Who are the associate leaders that we want to grow out? What are the emerging challenges that we, we see that we need to help our staff prepare for, and show leadership in. Also just thinking about some of the unique leadership skills and styles that social workers bring to the table. We know in this country, we've got an association, the Australian Association of Social Work. And we have as social work leaders a section in the social work ethics for Social Work managers. So when was the last time Social Work manages that we dusted that often had a little look, and really reflected on those key aspects about what it means for us and what it means for our social work leadership. . Are we providing equitable access? Are we standing up for good workforce culture? Do we promote efficient and accountable service? The word efficient You know, maybe stands out to us as social workers. But there it is. And at the core of what we are as leaders, really, we want to make sure that we're working in ethical frameworks.

Social workers, we're Person Centered people, so social leadership should be focused on that we're focused on the client, the participant, the patient, we're focused on our staff, we are clearly very person centered, and we need to bring that into our leadership. And also, we know that leadership is really around relationship and who better to bring in a good relationship skills building and maintaining than social workers. We know how to communicate up down across. We know how to build, maintain and encourage others. And we also know how to assess trustworthiness in our staff and how to build on strengths. These are the things that social workers can really bring to leadership that perhaps some of our other colleagues will need to grow and develop in first. We know as social workers as well the importance of advocating for meaningful outcomes for the people that we serve. We know as well that social determinants of health in my area of practice, are vital in terms of seeing real change for people, not just in physical symptoms, but in all of the aspects of their life. So those social determinants are really important and something that social work really brings to the field. So what do you care about, you know what we need to start with that place, we need to align our energy with our passion, and really see what leadership contributions we can bring as social workers, to the space in our community, our country and across the world. You know, I'm talking to you at the moment. We're in the middle, we're actually in the beginning stages of a pandemic here. And across the world we see crisis. Social workers are crisis people, we we learn about it in our studies, we practice it daily in our clinical areas. And we we help people navigate through crisis. This, these are times that social workers really have a lot to offer, and a lot of strength ,stability,, and something that's really vital for for patients for community members, which is about giving people education that they can understand, helping them to navigate what services they can to make things safer for them. And in terms of social work, leaders we have as a strength they're in crisis work, we can stay strong in a crisis when, when others might be maybe looking to us for for guidance and for wisdom in what to do in a crisis and critical situations. I think also that there's something in this for students as well, social work students have a great opportunity to provide leadership when they're on their placements. Social workers will be looking to you to, to really provide a breath of fresh air, and to really step up in the area of work that the Social Work field educators given you. Think about it as students, you know, what, what do you have to do? How can you demonstrate leadership in your clinical practice, it will really leave a lasting impression for the supervisor, and for the manager as well. You don't have to wait until you are a senior social worker. Really what I've learned and what I like to encourage others is that we don't have to be someone different. You know, we don't have to be different to our values and our ethical framework, we can really provide something as social workers that is different from our multidisciplinary colleagues. And we can be okay with that, we should be okay with that. And we should see it as a strength. Our ethical framework, so value base, offers a lot to MDT colleagues and we need to really remember that. Who you are will be transformational. You don't need to change that. Just thinking about ahead, you know, what, what can we focus on? How can we bring our professional values into the situation that we're facing right now. Using that campfire analogy How can we gather people? How can we provide warmth? How can we provide guidance, energy, something that sustains people so that they can then go off and do what they need to do? We need to be also looking to the how we can get that for ourselves. You know, these podcasts are a great opportunity for managers who might sometimes feel isolated, to really get some energy into their practice, energy into their leadership, so what are the areas that we can go to to really seek that revitalizing warmth that a campfire might provide?

My journey doesn't stop. I'm continuing to kind of learn and be challenged. I continue to learn from the people that I supervise and lead. We I seek feedback from those people. I use a practice development technique that ask people at the end of my one to one sessions with them, how challenging was this out of 10? how supportive was this out of 10? You know, what we know is that people grow and are at their best when they receive maximum challenge, maximum support. When one is out of balance. They're not doing so well. When we have we give ,we're great at giving support. Sometimes we may not give the challenge that people need to grow into the the areas that they need to kind of develop into. So we need to remember to give both support and challenge to our people that we're looking after. Our motivating factors are vital. You know, we really need to know what motivates us as social workers. Sometimes in an interview at the end, when they're asking me questions, I will say to applicants, why do you want to be a social worker? Why do you want to be a social worker in health? Some people, you know, give fairly stock standard answers, but others will give a really thought out and heartfelt answer. And that's that's really what we as social work leaders are looking for, you know, we want clinicians who are really connected with their motivating factors, that connected with the patient, the consumer, the participan as a driving force, it's really how we need to stay connected as clinicians. And what wakes us up in the morning needs to be change for people. It needs to be walking alongside of people in crisis, seeing a change for them that might be small, it might be big, but really seeing something that we can bring to a person to really help them to navigate what's going on for them. And you know, that motivating factor is life changing for our clients, we can offer them so much just by a simple question. We're trained in that and we we developed that craft over time, in a simple question that kind of steers them or points them into a future that might be more positive than what they're facing at the moment. So don't be afraid of really reflecting about what motivates you and what your value basis I think it's fun. Most final things that we can do.

Lis: I've got this thing that I've been that's been sitting with me for many, many, many, many years about some of the things that can be wrong with the world.

Mim: Okay.

Lis: And I think I'm going to share one of them. One of the things that I have found is wrong with the world at times, at times. is the amount of managers out there who have a Master's of Business Administration. Yeah. Before before people go, Well, I'm just turning off now because you're an idiot. I want to say this. Why I have a problem with it, especially in the context of human service management, is that it uses a business model. Yeah. What I liked about our Social Work person here is that he brought it back to Social Work values. And I found that so refreshing Mim, so refreshing

Mim: Often Lis that's what's missing from the business model isn't it? is actually what do you what values are you grounded in, in your everyday work as a leader and a manager? You know, I worked with a manager and leader years ago who was very clear on the difference between management and leadership and would actually ask that question in senior social worker interviews. So, I think that's what's often missing when someone comes from purely a business background into a human service organization or agency. That they're missing the values that everyone around them is working from the base that that's that work comes from.

Lis: I didn't realize that the AASW code of ethics actually has a section for managers.

Mim: Yeah, yeah. They do have guidelines for managers. And I think and many countries around the world will have this as well in their professional standards. And I think it's really important. Like it's something we don't talk enough about. And definitely I think social work leaders don't go back to those guidelines often enough.

Lis: So I reckon they should, because, and I next week I'm going to have a look at them. I probably have overlooked that part of the ethics because I tend not to be in management positions. But I think the thing that this person raises is so important. Leadership is not just for senior social workers. Oh, yeah. Leadership starts as an undergraduate, and goes all the way through your career, and I really valued that point that he raises.

Mim: I would agree with that Lis,. I do think that's slightly contentious though. When he says to social work students on placement, don't be afraid to show leadership. From the university perspective. I've seen lots of students trip up when they've tried to show leadership in an organization that wasn't ready for it, or in an organization that had some difficult politics going on anyway. So when the student shows leadership, that's then seen as problematic. So I want to just be clear about that for students that first and foremost, they should be focused on their learning, and then developing their leadership skills. It's totally understandable. If you're not working in an environment where that doesn't feel safe for you to do that. Because social work students often feeling vulnerable positions on placements,

Lis: And a really good observation Mim, and I guess what it highlights is this particular managers style, that they're able to acknowledge the value that social work students bring to his department says a lot again about his leadership style, that mutuality that he that that I think was threaded throughout a lot of his commentary about his style.

Mim: Yeah. And that's often what's missing from leaders as well, isn't it? It's that visionary aspect that you spoke about before that, actually, it's more than just the everyday work that we do. It's our mission statement. It's the way that we interact and engage on an everyday basis. It's the lifelong learning that we are all engaging with. And it's harnessing all of that personal power and workforce power around that.

Lis: Absolutely. And, look, I think the the other thing I really was interested in, was his use of reflective practice in his management of his department. Yeah, and again, I thought Alleluia, you won't find that in an MBA, but that he's actually saying I am still reflecting in my role as a manager, something that I want to encourage in all of my social workers, but I too in my role, am reflective. I'm so reflective, in fact that I've got a an analogy for my leadership style, which I loved. Did you love it Mim? The old campfire? it appealed to the

Mim: Look. You know, I did, Liz. And we have spoken enough about the campfire and tribe on this podcast for all our listeners to know that that was already gonna resonate with us. But I think it's true. And I think when it comes to leadership, or to management, I have a pet peeve Lis, I hate it when people talk about the management, as though those those people who make up those positions aren't actually people, they've become a different kind of entity or being once they become managers. I, I like the fact that he included himself around that campfire. And that one of the social work values that should be upheld is that we're all in it together. We're actually all striving together for the same outcomes for our clients for vulnerable people that we work with and for changes In our society. And actually trying to keep that at the forefront, when you think about yourself as a leader and how you position yourself with your team, I think it's really important.

Lis: He broadened it out to Mim , didn't he with regards to staff, of course, clients, patients, their families, but community, and also country, and I thought you've got that micro mezzo macro thinking that's also going on for him in relation to his reflection on his own leadership and what's important.

Mim: Yeah, yeah, that's really clear, wasn't it? Some of that and the focus on being Person Centered still, and being able to, you know, own the fact that relationship is actually a ground value for social work, and how that plays out as a leader. I thought that was really great. He really asked that question and spoke quite a bit about what motivates you as well, Lis. And that's the question I think that we we don't often ask ourselves enough and we don't stop enough to contemplate. And I, he left me wondering about myself actually about what motivates me, which I really liked. I thought that was really good.

Lis: Me, to Mim, it began. In fact I did, I had some time to reflect on the time when I was a team leader

Mim: yep

Lis: And it was very, very early in my career, and I'm pretty sure that would have tipped the scales into why I burnt out. But what I reflected on was his point about the the way in which we, as social workers need to look at the concept of a balance between maximum challenge, maximum support and as as leaders, keeping that in check, and I thought, oh, that would have been so useful for me because I think what I do As I relied very heavily on my social work clinical skills, So, I was incredibly supportive as a team leader. But when it came to maybe having some more challenging conversations with people around, you know, how they were working as social workers, or, you know, the fact that they would they might not be growing in the way that that that that role required them to that their their clinical skills might not have been, you know, being you know, that they perhaps weren't learning in the role as much as what we would have liked. Just as examples, right? Yes. So I avoided the challenge, the maximum challenge stuff, right, because I didn't have that skill set at the time. But But I think what he's saying is, there's social work skills that you can use, but there's a skill set too that needs to be developed when you're taking on a position of leadership and management as a social worker. So don't just rely on some of the skills, there's other ones that you're going to have to develop and be brave enough to develop in that role when you're a leader.

Mim: And it's, it's that notion about not everybody has to like you all the time, right? So to challenge people, sometimes it's not the liked position. Whereas to go, to be totally supportive of people, of course, you're always going to be liked. But whether people will feel that they've achieved what they wanted to achieve under your leadership is another question.So that balance is really important.

Lis: It is, and I liked some of the questions that he was using in his supervision sessions.

Mim: Ooh that was great wasn't it

Lis: weren't they great?

Mim: There are a couple of key points that our social worker raises, about questions that he asks people in the supervision sessions. Do you remember what those questions were?

Lis: I wrote them down Mim. So it was how challenging was this for you out of 10? How supportive was this for you out of 10? Now, again, it's kind of it's it's mirroring that concept of the maximum, maximum challenge and maximum support. Yeah, he's he, he's bringing this into the supervision session. And I love that. I love it.

Mim: Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was really good. And, you know, it's a nice way for him to gauge at the minute where his supervisees are at. And then he can actually it's it's that, you know, he talked about needing to get feedback from his supervisors and from his staff regularly on his leadership, and I thought it was a really nice way to actually make sure he's doing it every single time.

Lis: And again, it highlights that mutuality that that we talked about a little earlier, that it's not just him providing the feedback, that he's actually being brave enough to ask his staff. Give me some feedback about how you're finding my leadership, how you're finding the way in which I I'm conducting supervision. Yeah, yeah.

Mim: Just before we finish up, Lis,, that question what motivates you? Or what do you What's your leadership style? That really left me thinking I was thinking about how often when I'm in leadership positions, I'm much more focused on process than I am on outcome. So I'm often focused on how my team is experiencing whatever processes we're going through, rather than being wedded to an outcome. But what ends up happening is that I will inevitably have someone say to me, you didn't take us to where I wanted us to go. And I know that that's because my focus is on the process rather than the outcome. I'm, I liked what he our social worker was saying about having to balance those aspects of your leadership style. What about you lose as a leader, in your experience, has our social worker led you to think a little bit about your style as well.

Lis: Sure has, because look, my reflection is that often I, I have heard myself a lot say I'm not a leader, because I'm not in a in a management role.

Mim: Yes.

Lis: So it's got me thinking about his point that I don't have to be in a management role to be to think about leadership qualities that that I might have or that that I need to be bringing into, for instance, a project I'm working on or at the moment, as you know, if I'm working in a in a clinical team, again, what are some of the leadership qualities that I'm bringing into that space? Yeah, so so it's more about, he has encouraged me to think about my leadership qualities within the different areas that I work in. So I'll probably do a whole lot more reflection. I might take that into my supervision session next week, with my Manager.

Mim: I think that's a great idea. Why not? So thanks so much, everyone that was so good to hear from our social worker today. And I think in this time of change that we're all in having a conversation about leadership, and social work leadership is actually really relevant and really important right now.Before we finish up, Liz, do you want to let everyone know how they can get in touch with us?

Lis: I will. So if you want to follow us on Instagram or Twitter, we are at @ SOWKstoriespod. Or you can come and visit us at the website on Social Work stories.com.

Mim: And if you have stories about how you've experienced leadership in your practice, over the years, some traits that you think are really important in a good social work leader, drop us a line, let us know we'd love to hear from you. So take care everyone, and have a good couple of weeks and hopefully take care of yourselves your friends, your family and your colleagues and stay safe in these times. Bye Lis

Lis: Bye Mim, take care every one

Mim: See you later.