Ep. 28 - Eco Social Work and Climate Justice (w/ transcript)

This episode includes an interview which was recorded in late 2019 just prior to the terrible Australian bushfire disaster. Many of the points of view shared by the panelists became highly poignant in the following months. We believe you'll feel the same way.

As ever, join Mim & Lis as they unpack this emerging, yet integral social work practice in Eco Social Work and Climate Justice. We hope you enjoy!

Credits:

Hosts - Lis Murphy and Dr. Mim Fox.

Producers - Ben Joseph & Justin Stech

Contact us online at www.socialworkstories.com, follow our facebook page or use the handle @SOWKStoriesPod on twitter or instagram.

Do you have thoughts, want to contribute a story or question for the team, or just say hello? Send us an email on socialworkstoriespodcast@gmail.com - we'd love to hear from you!

Podcast Transcript - Episode 28: Eco Social Work and Climate Justice

To cite:

The Social Work Stories Podcast, 2020, ‘Episode 27: Eco social work and climate justice’ (transcript), accessed online [insert date here], <www.socialworkstories.com>.

Date Published: 03/03/2020

With special thanks to Katie Wicks for transcription.

Photo by Luke Richardson on Unsplash

Mim - What a summer we’ve had Lis, it's been awful in Australia this summer

Lis- Yeah, we talked a little bit about it. Firstly, I'm so glad I can have a conversation with you outside of my closet.

Mim- (laughs) Yeah welcome back Lis

Lis- Thank you, thank you. It's so nice to actually sit in the same room with you, because a flood isn’t keeping me away from you and nor a fire. But back to your point, it has been a really challenging summer.

Mim- It really has, and for everyone listening, welcome back to the Social Work Stories Podcast. We’re really thrilled to be back for 2020. This is our first episode for the year. I'm Mim Fox and I'm here with Lis Murphy. Hello and happy new year.

Lis- Thank you, thank you. Here we are in February and it kind of feels like, gosh it’s a new decade as well.

Mim-It is absolutely

Lis-I don't think Australians really had the option of celebrating new year and Christmas and the summer break.

Mim- That’s right, yeah. For many all their plans were put on hold and whole towns were put on hold. It was really a time of trauma across the country

Lis- And I think it will be one of those Christmas’s where there was life before. We lived our life a certain way before and then there was the post 2019 fires, 2020 fires and what that’s meant for so many Australians.

Mim- That’s right. So last year we were at the ANZSWWER symposium, the Australian and New Zealand social work welfare education and research symposium, and some of our regular listeners will remember that last year we started a mini season stemming from that conference about activism in social work practice. And so, we had some really great episodes towards the end of last year around that theme. And we’re going to continue that again today Lis. I'm so pleased to sort of bring this story and more so a conversation to people today about Eco social work. Which I know is really close to your heart as well.

Lis- It is so close to my heart. But I feel like, because I've been out practicing for about thirty years. I have never heard of this model of social work. I was so excited when I listened to this interview. And as you know I contacted you and said, is this a theory? Why haven’t I been told about this theory? How dare they not tell me about this theory, Because it is something, as you know, I am also a permaculturalist. And it's so exciting and it's another theory that I’m really thirsty to learn more about. Because i want to add it to my toolbox, or my gardening shed, or my wheelbarrow.

Mim- You’re the only person that i know Lis, that could come out of the closet and out themselves as a permaculturalist.

Lis -No honestly, I think before we started the recording, I said to you, the three themes to permaculture marry so beautifully to social work values. Its earth care,

Mim- yeah

Lis -People care,

Mim- yeah

Lis -Fair share. Now if we were a succinct profession like the permaculturalist obviously are, don’t you reckon that boils it down

Mim- No absolutely, I think that’s fantastic. There are a lot of our listeners going, uuh, I’m not a gardener, I want those listeners to know that I am with you 100%. And we’re going to get into that but hang in there because this conversation isn’t just about how do you spend more time in the garden. This is actually about a method of practise that we can start to engage with on a more broader level. As a profession as well as individuals. So, we are pleased to bring everyone this conversation. I'm going to let our colleagues, members of our tribe, speak for themselves as they introduce themselves at the beginning of the conversation, and it was a real pleasure to be with them at the ANZSWWER symposium, it was great.

Lis -I bet, they sounded like such passionate women, I loved listening to their conversation

Mim - So let’s give it over to everyone, we’ll see you in a second guys, see you soon.

Music Plays

Sue- Hi, I’m Sue Bailey and I identify as an eco-social worker. And I do that because I know that humans are a part of nature. So, to position our social work practise in the systems in which we live makes perfect sense,

Marilyn - I’m Marilyn Palmer, I teach in the social work program at Eden Cowan University with Sue on the Bumbery campus, and have done so for many many years, And I became, i have probably always been an eco-social worker. The story that i think is so interesting to share is that I thought for a long time that I couldn’t bring my ecological concerns and interests and work as a peace activist and greens candidate into my social work education. Because, I don’t know why I didn’t think I could do that. But I eventually discovered that you could. That education for sustainability was a thing in universities. And since then, and since liaising and meeting with others like Naomi, Antonia and Sue, and coming together and using the language of eco social work I’m on a roll now.

Naomi - I’m Naomi Godden, I identify as an activist. I’m an activist in climate justice, in gender justice and social justice. I’m also involved in the social work program at ECU with Marilyn and Sue, I also co-chair the women’s climate justice collective which is a national movement of women demanding climate justice and ensuring that climate action is undertaken with a gendered lens. So that the rights of women and people of other genders are addressed in all climate action. And I’m also an elected Councillor at the shire of Augusta Margaret River. And I bring a social justice and climate justice lens into that policy making and decision-making space. Which is an incredible privilege and opportunity. But which can also be extremely frustrating. So, for me, I guess having been an activist since my early teens and living in an environment, I live in Margaret river a beautiful part of Western Australia, an incredible environment which is severely under threat from climate change. And so being so connected to nature there and understanding the intersection between environmental degradation and climate change and social justice, for me it’s just a normative part of my practice and really has always been.

Antonia - Hello, I’m Antonia Hendrick, and I am a social work academic at Curtin University, and I identify as lots of things. I think, essentially as a human in nature and part of nature and it's been a big part of who I am and my upbringing. I’ve been connected to you know, waterways and creeks and so on growing up and then just really fond memories and feeling connected to nature has been really important. And the health and wellbeing that gives you as a human being is something that I think is really important in my work as a social worker and to bring that to my teaching. And working with Sue and Marilyn in the first instance around community development, which has brought us together, and then extending that into eco social work has been a really important part of practice and writing collectively as well. And now recently meeting Naomi which is really inspirational as well.

Marilyn - One of my areas of coming into eco social work and using it as a term, where the links are quite strong in the literature, is around disaster response. I did a study back in the 1990’s around the response to the Gracetown cliff collapse down in Margaret river, where a number of children and adults died. And that got me interested in looking at leadership and how leadership plays out in disasters. More recently though, we are all really confronted with the impact of climate change on disasters and their increasing number of bushfires. So, I have recently gone back and looked at leadership around the Yarloop bushfire in Western Australia, where again there were fatalities but also much more physical damage to houses. And in fact, the whole town was severely damaged, and came close to being destroyed. Of course, which it hasn’t, like all communities it’s rallied. But still it had a huge amount of damage done. So working around that area and understanding the link between climate change and the disadvantage for people who are on low incomes, for elderly people and for people who are going to be severely impacted by disasters knowing full well that I community has to recover from a disaster in a way that doesn’t replicate the disadvantages around gender and class and ethnicity which were often there before the disaster. That’s been a really powerful connection for me. More recently looking at how you research in those areas.

Naomi - And that’s a really good point Marilyn, because the reality is that, and there is a heap of research that shows this, that climate change exacerbates existing vulnerabilities. So, it doesn’t cause people to become vulnerable it actually exacerbates the systems and structures of inequality that we already have. And, that’s whereas climate justice activists, researchers, teachers and people that care about this issue. What I’m learning and have really engaged with and think we’re really committed to collectively, is that we need to confront the systems that are causing climate change in the first place, we need to dismantle and tackle that and transform into something new. And I speak to the students regularly about how it’s the white supremicist, imperialist, capitalist, patriarchy that we need to untangle, destroy and rise up with a transformed system that is based on the rights of people and nature. Where people and the environment are intimately connected, and people understand their reliance and dependence on the environment. And the environment would flourish without us, in fact it would be better if we weren’t here. And so, this human centeredness that we have currently in this white supremacy, imperialist, capitalist patriarchy is what’s extremely problematic. If we can move to understanding people as one of a multiple of species in this enormous ecosystem that exist in the biosphere, then it shifts our thinking considerably.

Sue - I think that connects into some of the work that you’re doing Antonia with first nations people

Antonia- Yeah, I was thinking the same as well listening to you speak Naomi. What’s been really important in some of the work that has happened, and involved at Curtain University is working with some Aboriginal elders, who have come to work with us as a staff group as well as a student group around starting to really think about ourselves in a different space. So, rethinking our relationships with one another, but also the land and the environment. So, the deep connection that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have with land, and country, and the sicknesses and illness that can come from disconnection from those spaces and places is really important. So, it really gets students thinking at a different level. And a level that connects them in different ways too country and the environment I think, and yeah, so that’s been really important.

Social Worker - What I wanted to add to that is, I think about social work practise, because this is a podcast about practice, but I think about research and education and conversations as a part of research, as a part of social work. It doesn’t sit in that idea of doing social work practice, it is the very way that we engage and have conversations and work to effect change. Whether it’s at an interpersonal level through conversation or raising awareness, or, in climate strikes where we are actually trying to get government to rethink its really destructive policies on oil and gas industries.

Social Worker- I think the key here is, I would love to see all social workers identify as activists, and see everything that we do, whether it's work individually on our own self-reflection, on our work with communities, in our teams, in our structural changes with our organisation, and the lobbying that we are involved in, too seeing everything that we do as activism and we’re working towards challenging and transforming the systems that are problematic. Working towards this transformation in a really deliberate and collective way. And if ever there was a time for social work to claim activism as our mode of practise, now is it. You know the predictions around climate change are so horrific. If we keep going on the track that we are going the fate of humanity will be, you know, I don’t even really want to name it, it’s just so devastating. And so we need to really claim that, claim our space in that as ours. Really one of the few professions that we have on the globe that is focused on working collectively for social change with a systems lens which is so powerful. And use that and really claim the activism that we can, and really feel that collectively grasp that power and take that power. And obviously doing it in partnership with communities and supporting, organising and mobilising with our community that supports others. Particularly with vulnerable people and oppressed people. To stand up and rise up as leaders. And to lead movements for social change. We have such opportunity and power to do that.

Social Worker - I couldn’t agree more and I think, it concerns me when people talk about eco social work as if it’s a field of practice or as if it’s a domain of practice. When in fact it actually applies and can work across, and needs to across, all of the fields of practice and all of the domains of practice. It’s a way of working in social work, which has been around since the beginning of social work because it is about collective practice. But we do, we think collectively when we do individual case work. I ‘ve got a background in child protection and I know that I was bringing those values and ideas about collectively and about connection, about relationships and families and wellbeing and how you might achieve that. In the context back then. In the 1980’s, in relation to the peace movement, because that was the big existential threat we had there in relation to nuclear war. And so the existential threat we have now is very similar but bigger. Because then we were just relying on one person not to push a button. We have already begun the process that is going to cause, is causing, climate change right now. And we’re seeing right now the impacts of that all across the globe. And so, for me it’s understanding this is a way of doing social work which builds on the tradition of feminism, of radical social work, of the antipsychiatry movement. All of the history that is there leads us also to transdisciplinary practice. I agree 100% with Naomi. We are so well placed, because we have got systems theory, we’ve got the history, we’ve got the skills. Jane Adams and the settlement houses, much of what I’ve heard today is just modern day settlement houses. The practise that people are talking about is modern day Jane Adams type work. So, working with those other disciplines which have a little corner of them, doctors, nurses, planners, all of these people who are actually wanting to deal with this issue as well, we can work with them.

Naomi - So at ECU, Marilyn, Sue and I are currently forming an interdisciplinary research group on climate justice. Bringing together academics from environmental science, public health, education, the arts, social work obviously, probably business, law and engineering. We’ll grab who ever we can that is interested in this space and come together to develop and conduct in partnership with communities, really effective strategic research. And in that action research process, so the feminist participatory action research approach, which is very much about working with communities to undertake research to inform advocacy and activism about social change. What’s been really exciting for us is there has been so much interest across the university and actually quite a desperate appetite from academics across various disciplines to come together and make this happen. Firstly, it’s really smart because we can leverage off the collective intelligence and intellect across the university. And we will obviously include other universities and first nation elders and other community leaders in this group as well. Secondly, you know if social work is struggling for money, which it often does, other fields, particularly medicine, sometimes the sciences, engineering, can access good money. So, we would partner with them and we be really clever about where we would access the funds we need to do good research. And thirdly, by being interdisciplinary, by publishing and participating in spaces outside of the, I guess the traditional social work space, we as social workers will be influencing so many other sectors and spaces. And I think that what is so exciting, as will the environmental scientist be influencing us and so on. Because it’s this way of sharing and building knowledge collectively. So, I think this is a really exciting moment in time for us as academics and as activists in this space. The fact that the university is very supportive of that, and is enabling that is wonderful, and I guess gosh, we are just excited to see where that can go. So, watch this space.

Sue- I just want to add on to Naomi’s comment, I’ve been doing some transdisciplinary work at the University of Western Australia. So, there's a multidisciplinary team that is working to raise awareness in farmers and how they can do things differently. So, what UWA has done is, they’ve bought a farm out in the wheat belt, so that’s an area that is really struggling both in terms of the decline in rural population, because people are leaving. But also, in terms of impacts of climate change, like drought. And a confusion about, and a real despair really, because farmers have been doing this work for so many years, for generations, and now they’re being blamed for climate change. And now they are being told that the way they are doing things isn’t working. So, what the … farm out in the … does is that it actually trials, and also it is a working farm that runs for a profit so it provides a really good model of how farmers can adopt and look at some of the regenerative agricultural stuff. But in terms of what social work is doing, so, one of the things that I did in that space is community development work where I did a bit of an asset map to understand the needs of the community. And what was really clear was the university hadn’t engaged at all with first nations people. So, one of the things I did was build the relationship. And we put an acknowledgement sign up on the farm and then had a BBQ. But what it did, it really, there is still a lot of discrimination in some of our rural areas. And so, what that did, was that it signalled that UWA actually really takes that seriously and that it is modelling a way of working with first nations people. Because they know that country better than anybody. They’ve got stories and history that are just starting to be heard because they are feeling a little bit safe to say that. So that’s sort of one of the examples of that transdisciplinary work. There is a committee that we have animal biologists, we have plant crop people, engineering, architecture and social work sort of sitting on that committee. And the work that I have been doing is around theorising what is actually going on there. So that collective work, this is collective work, and this is what it’s called, and this is what the aim is of it.

Social Worker - And what’s really exciting about that, and following your progress through that Sue, is how there’s decolonising practices and essentializing indigenous ways of knowing, doing and being which is really exciting to see that unfold, and be a part of that to some degree as well. And I guess, this isn’t multidisciplinary, but within a unit that I teach community development, students are asked to do a strengths, weakness, opportunity, and threats analysis in their local community. And they do that based on first nation expressions within that particular community. So, they’re for the first-time seeing community in a very different way and often its physical assets and the beauty and what’s actually there. Which actually brings a different layer and lens to their social work understanding and practice and it’s really a rich resource that they then bring into the teaching space, that they share with their colleagues as well which is really great. One of the areas of course, because we are educators, is looking at what happens in the classroom. And we talk about collectivist practice and it's so easy for educators to forget we are working with collectives all the time in the classroom. So, bringing eco social work into the classroom, doesn’t have too, but it can lead to transformative learning practices because that’s the kind of obvious connection between eco social work and teaching. Because you’re working with a collective and you’re wanting to create opportunities for deconstructing the power relationships in the classroom and as well as the content, the process by which people are learning. So that’s another place where it gets acted out.

Social Worker - I just wanted to add one sentence to that, people in the community are hungry to know how to work as collectives. They’ve lost the art because we’ve been marinating in neoliberalism, so they are hungry and really looking for examples of and some training around how to do that.

Social Worker - And I think that the best thing that social workers, community members, anyone who has an interest in any aspect of social change can do, is find your local activist group. Every single community has them. Mine has several. Some may only have a couple. Activism is in so many different forms, you know. It can be the community garden, it might be a climate action group, it may be a little homelessness action group, it might be the community centre. If we rethink these as they’re all spaces of activism. Particularly if people are organising together to mobilise their community to demand something different and to bring about something different. Then they are all these spaces for activism. I think that we have a lot of really great wisened activists, leaders and people with a lot of experience in Australia, Marilyn being, Marilyn, Sue, Antonia, being some great examples of that. And particularly for young social workers, like, if this interests you and you see this desire to be part of movements for social change, find these elders and work with them and learn together. Because the knowledge is there. A big learning for me was consensus decision making. Now I was never taught that at University, I did a group work unit and we definitely didn’t go into the realm of consensus as a theory. But it's been participating at grass roots readiful activist groups where I’ve really learnt that. And it’s a skill that I can never undo now. I love it and it has such an influence on the way I work with people as a social worker, in my activist space, as a researcher and as an educator. It is one of the many skills that you would learn through activism. What activism does, is that it, participating in activist collectives, what it does, you become more than just, that’s your five hours to volunteer a fortnight, or my practice is over here in my workplace. It permeates everything including your personal life and your family. Where you approach life with an activist lens, for challenging systems of injustice and working together to bring about something that is radically different, and it is going to work for everyone. And really feeling excited and claiming that, is an extremely liberating experience in itself. We talked about earlier, how we feel in doing this work, and I feel, you know sometimes I feel very enraged and angry and frustrated and deeply sad. But, most of the time I am super energised. I'm so excited, I get a real buzz off this work. I get a buzz from going to the climate strike, but I also get a buzz from being in an activist meeting where we’re organising an event or organising an activity or where we’re collectively talking about the world that we want, you know or these things because that’s all part of the process. And the more that we can engage in these really exciting transformational dialogue and discussions about what the world could be like, and then making that happen in their own communities in whatever way that we can. I think that again, the more powerful it will be, but also the more healthy and happy we will be. So really, it's grabbing that and enjoying it.

Music

Lis- Every time I listen to it, I learn something more,

Mim- Yeah

Lis- And again their passion. But I wanted to pick it up with the point that one of the women made about how activism can look differently, for different people, right. So, she sounded very much engaged in protest and climate change activism. But I was also thinking about the different ways in which we can practice that as social workers in our practice. And I was thinking about things like the food security work that is being done by social workers. Because we know that many of our clients cannot afford nutritious food.

Mim - Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah

Lis - The work that many of the social workers are doing connecting people through community gardens. One of the neighbourhood centres that I used to work at, that was the connecting point for many of the men in the neighbourhood and it was a way of addressing the isolation, the social isolation there. But also connecting them to earth

Mim - And the natural resources around them,

Lis - Exactly

Mim- It’s this notion of climate justice Lis, that the women spoke to as well, which I think when we think about climate change we often don’t, with all the media and hype that’s happening, we often don’t think about the impact on the individual people. And the lack of, the social injustice that comes about as a result of this. I think bringing those stories to light is actually one of the really important roles that social work can play here.

Lis- Absolutely, and earlier we had talked off mic about, the skills that social workers can actually bring to the whole conversation. That I would imagine many countries are similar to Australia, but it can be quite divisive depending on what circles you have conversations in. The whole issue of climate change can essentially divide a room. And I think one of the important things that social workers can bring to the conversation is the ability to listen and to get a sense of where the person is coming from in their discussion around it. It is so easy to kind of right someone off as some right wing person, that doesn't actually read the science or have a sophisticated thinking around it. But we know that we lost an election based on those assumptions

Mim - We did

Lis - And one of the things I think we can do better; is to understand what the thinking is. Is it about, that people don’t believe in climate change or is it that they are really worried about paying their rent, or losing their jobs? And I think that, Northern Queenslander issue where we lost a lot of votes up there, I think was around that and the fact that we need to listen and understand where people are coming from.

Mim- Oh look I agree with you, but gosh that’s hard and that’s generous and it takes so much empathy, Oh Lis, I have to say I find it really tiring having to be the one always listening. And I know there’s a lot of social workers out there who feel that they are the lone voice in a lot of these discussions and these issues. And they’re known in their families as the one who’s always, you know, putting their opinion forward and being the one to morally speak out, and oh the social worker’s going to say that again. It can get exhausting. What I really loved about that notion of conversation, is that to be an activist doesn’t mean that you have to pound the pavement. It doesn’t mean that you have to take the stage all the time, right. Like it actually can be embedded in this method of conversation. And I think that is actually really eye opening to people. That they can achieve a lot on a one on one level around climate justice and climate change.

Lis - And that it doesn’t have to be massive either. That for instance, the hospital that I worked at last year, we decided to have a green policy in the department and we tracked where all the paper was going and we planted up plants for all the offices and we recycled all the toner. There are things that we can do in our lived work as well.

Mim - Yeah

Lis - And I think the time is absolutely right for it. And for Australians at the moment I think everyone, no matter how you vote, everyone can now look at the past summer and go yeah something is really wrong here and we actually do need to come together around this. And one of the things I found heartening about listening to what it’s been like for some people, you know watching TV or listening to friends of friends, is that it has been bringing communities together.

Mim - Yes

Lis - To rebuild. And I think this is a perfect opportunity for, and we know that social workers will be involved in this particular part of the recovery, they’ve been part of the crisis, they will be part of the community building that goes on and we do have a lot to bring to that space. And, like, I think that we are possibly the canaries in the coal mine. You know Australia experiences a summer like this, our northern hemisphere colleagues are probably about to experience something very similar. We know that California’s quite similar in regards to some of the fires they’ve been having. But social workers are needing to kind of think through I guess; how do we work in this space? One of the things Mim, that I just wanted to pick up, which really struck a chord for me, was one of the women said that there is a strong link between people who are already disadvantaged, who are already vulnerable, that climate change can exacerbate that.

Mim- Yeah natural disasters. One of the things that’s been sitting with me while I’ve been listening to you just now Lis, is that being a family living in poverty, right, you’re already prey to the whims of big organisations, like big supermarket chains. And you’re so reliant on all of these larger, often people are paying for their shopping with vouchers from NGO’s and things like that, but then they’re going to these big conglomerate organisations to get their shopping, and they’re prey then to the power of being a consumer. So, it’s cheaper for them to get unhealthy food, it’s cheaper for them often to buy food that is covered in layer upon layer of packaging, right. And they’re then having to make short cuts around their shopping and the nutrition for their families. Because they’re already at the whim of society, does that make sense?

Lis - Totally

Mim - And then when you bring this idea of, it’s almost like, and I have heard lots of people say this, that climate change is like a luxury of an issue. It’s totally fine for people that are well off to be standing on their pedestal about this. But for those people that are on the poverty line, they don’t have that luxury. And I think that’s where that sentiment comes from. That actually, part of the social work work that we are doing with people has to be around finding their place in all of this. And finding the morals and values that go alongside some of this every day decision making, that can actually put some of this into perspective. Does that make sense?

Lis - No, I think you raise a really good point. Perhaps one of the things that I would, that I both agree with, but I challenge, is around the fact that food is cheaper in supermarkets. One of the things that I really worry about is the fact that we’ve got a whole generation, perhaps two generations now, who have lost contact with earth and who do not know how to grow their own food. Which is often ultimately cheaper than the supermarkets. It’s like there has been a lost knowledge. So, I know my grandparents grew most of the food that was eaten. But that has been lost. And so, I think that there are some social workers working in that space, and you know lots of other professions too, around recouping some of that knowledge. Again, the community garden works that are being done with some of the public housing estates. It’s really important that there is also that link between affordability and also the value of actually having contact with earth and with people in that space as well. Moving away from that therapeutic model of yeah, we sit in four walls and we talk through a problem. Sometimes digging in the soil is going to be so much more healing for some people than that particular model

Mim- You know I completely agree with you, but there is an entire aspect of me which is going, I ain’t digging in the soil. But I’m an urban, urban social worker. I live and work in a city, I don’t have the soil to be playing around in. I am dependent on supermarkets. I also am living in an area of Sydney where I can access farmers markets, but not everybody does. And so, I totally hear what you're saying, but I think for me, when I think about eco social work, I don’t automatically ascribe it to getting down on my hands and knees in the ground. For me eco social work is very much around a broader understanding of sustainability. You know for me, that clothing sustainability is a really important passion area personally for me. And so I bring that into discussions with my students. When we’re talking about working with families. I used to bring it into my practice all the time around, how do we use, repair, recycle. These are the concepts for me that I find much more fundamental. But I loved with the women that we’ve heard from today, talking about education sustainability. That we’re not educating in the short term. We’re not actually working with our students on how do we solve the problems of now. We’re working with them on a much larger scale, too create change in our world. And when they think about themselves and their own educational development, that it’s not, what have I achieved at the end of this class? It’s not what have I achieved doing this assessment? It's, what have I achieved overall in this subject and what have I achieved overall in my degree, and what am I going to take from all of that into the longer-term professional development education in my career. That these notions of sustainability are broader.

Lis - Totally

Mim- Know what I mean.

Lis - Absolutely Mim

Mim- That’s what makes sense to me. I ain’t digging in the ground with you.

Lis- No. Look, you may not be digging in the soil with me in the near future, but I'm in for the long haul.

Mim - Exactly

Lis- And you know, I can wait, there’s no problem with that.

Mim- What about if we come to an in between Lis, and we collaborate in different ways

Lis- And I can definitely teach you how to compost in your apartment for sure.

Mim - That I’m looking forward too

Lis- I can definitely do that

Mim - I’m looking forward to that, because seriously, I need some tips around that. But listeners if you are listening, feel free to post for me any tips about indoor composting. But also, let's take it back to the conversation we heard already, which was where these wonderful colleagues of ours were talking about interdisciplinary approach to social work research in this space. And how it has to be collective collaborative work. And I wholeheartedly agree with that notion Lis. That social work can not exist in this space alone. There are a number of disciplines that actually are coming at this concept of eco, environmental concerns with the environment as one of the systems that surrounds us. That actually has vast expertise, and we need to be working together.

Lis- The idea of that farm, that they talked about. The farm that they’d set up

Mim- yeah yeah yeah

Lis - I thought that was an incredible lovely model

Mim - Loved it

Lis- I do, because some of my heritage is from outback Australia right. And so, I know that it’s hard to go to this hometown and be the left leaning liberal

Mim - The voice literally in the wilderness

Lis - Absolutely. But I could certainly be able to engage with community. And so, I think social work brings so much to that program. We have to be at the table, because again, back to our earlier point we know how to have the conversations. And the fact that that woman was saying no one had actually talked to the Aboriginal community that lived in that town.

Mim- Isn’t that horrendous though, it’s like social work 101

Lis- Aah yes. I think that collaborative model is spectacular. And I want to hear more about it

Mim - Yeah me too. The last thing that they also reminded everyone, they kind of put a bit of a challenge out there for the listeners, was to go and find your local activist group. They said look for activist opportunities everywhere.

Lis- Look, at the very least, know who your local member is, have a conversation with them, talk to them about a community issue.

Mim- Yeah, likewise I would say go and find someone that inspires you and just engage with them. Listen to what they are putting out there if it’s a podcast, or it’s a radio program, or watch what they are making and creating. Go and hear someone speak. This is how we move forward in this area actually, is engaging with the people that are inspiring us and then getting inspired ourselves. And then inspiring others

Lis - Well yes. And the flip side is to have those hard conversations, but take it from a different angel. Be less attached to having to prove your point. Listen to what the other person is saying and try and practice empathy. What is it that is driving their belief around this? Because it might be a way to have a more enriching conversation with the person, rather than having to be right.

Mim- This conversation could have gone on all day

Lis- Totally. I could suggest to you that we leave here right now, the sun’s still up, and we can go, and you could help me

Mim- If you tell me you’re going to go and dig in your soil

Lis - It’s time for the winter crop to go in Mim. I’m just saying, I’m just saying

Mim - Keep me indoors, with a lovely cup of hot chocolate in front of the fire, but thank you very much

Lis- So, to our listeners we are going to go. You can come with me to the garden or you can go and have a hot chocolate with Mim. We could divide our listeners perhaps on that.

Mim - Lets do an online poll on that one

Lis - Who’s coming with me

Mim- That’s right

Lis- I’ll come and show you the pawpaw’s growing on my tree

Mim - She’s not joking people

Lis- Or you could just stay put and you could contact us through email on socialworkstoriespodcast@gmail.com, or you could send us something on twitter or Instagram on @SOWKstoriespod. I mean the choices are there Mim, there’s no excuse.

Mim- Absolutely, I would agree100% Lis. Dig in the soil, have a hot chocolate in front of the fire or send us a line.

Lis - And add eco social work to your frame of reference, which is what I’m going to do. I'm so excited

Mim- And conversations as your method of practice

Lis- So good

Mim- I know, I know. Have a good week Lis

Lis- You too Mim

Mim- Bye everyone.